defies_reason | ⚔ i thought we might have a little chat.

Similar enough. Starfleet is more... dogmatic, I think, than individuals.

[Which, oddly enough, is something that he has been aware of for some time. He just hadn't bothered questioning Starfleet's agenda until Khan, and even then it seemed as though Starfleet was in the right. Chekov is very still for several moments.]

I have never felt that I must murder people who are following orders much the same as I am, but I have, and I've been praised for that. Not murder the way that some do--close, where you can see faces--but killing from a distance, where there are no faces, only a hostile vessel on a viewscreen. I understand that there are differences. Ultimately, though, I think I have killed... hundreds, thousands of people, or assisted in their deaths.

[He isn't going to break down over it. It's his job; he takes orders. He works for the organization that best serves his needs, and this is something that he is going to have to think about. Out loud, even.]

Then what is the difference between a hero and a murderer? Vantage point?

Vantage point is a lot of it. Every hero must be a villain to his enemy, after all.

[Isaak takes another slow sip of his drink, considering.]

Most men, I expect, are neither. But once one begins to make such choices, to do things that are unpardonable, or are pardonable only because of the cause they serve, it becomes much less clear cut. I think I am a better man than some of my fellows because I provide for the families of the men who serve beneath me, because the clubs I own treat their women better than the ones in Saudi Arabia do. [He gives a small, wry smile.] But perhaps those are only the motes in others' eyes.

[Isaak is so calm about this. But of course he is; unlike Chekov, he doesn't have some lofty sense of duty or righteousness blinding him to the facts of his business. Frankly, Chekov wouldn't mind going back to blind devotion to the Federation. If he remembers any of this once he's home, opening fire on an enemy vessel is going to come with a good deal of moral complexity.]

And so there are no heroes or villains, only actions that are justifiable in some way, to someone, and actions that are not.

I think that you must be a decent man. [It's a gut conviction. The boy's beyond being able to look at Isaak and his actions objectively.]

[They've spoken about the price of command; there is a price, too, to serving someone else. Blind devotion is by far the easiest route, and the price then is often paid after. Regret. Retaliation. Isaak is of the opinion that it's a weak defense to claim one was simply following orders; ignorance does not make innocence. A man-- be he a good man as Pavel Andreievich is, or a decent man as Pavel believes Isaak to be, or (most simply) a man who wants to be able to meet his own eye in the mirror-- must accept that he is acting, must weigh his actions against his conscience, or at the least against the consequences.

Ideals, too, have a place in this. A man may fight and kill to protect his ideals as surely as he does so to protect himself. But a good soldier does not lie to himself about what he does. Whether a good man can be a good soldier is a question Isaak does not feel qualified to answer; and, strangely, one he is reluctant to delve into too deeply. He hopes the answer is yes.]

Your word on the matter means more to me than most.

[That is diplomatic, as to try and claim clean hands is surely beyond him, and Isaak of all people knows his own biases. But Pavel is a good man at heart, and a friend's word is better than a stranger's.]

[These are all things that aren't covered at the Academy. Simulated scenarios remove the human element--the emotions, the knowledge that there are actual lives at stake on both sides. There are no classes dealing with the conscience. If anything, Starfleet subtly encourages a suppression of the conscience in battle.

But Pavel will find a way to balance conscience and idealism with reality. He's off to a good start.]

Because you trust me, or because it is important to you that I think so?

[There's a teasing smile that renders an answer unnecessary, if Isaak doesn't care to comment.]

This is more than an academic matter to you. You've a moral position already, but you're willing to consider other points of view. [He tilts his head very slightly.] That is rarer than you might imagine, and I respect it.

[And Isaak is at the least a good enough man that he'd rather a good man think well of him than the alternative. And he likes Chekov. That is perhaps a more arbitrary reason, but not untrue.]

[This isn't an answer, precisely, but it is a compliment. Compliments from Isaak are important because Pavel knows he wouldn't give one insincerely (at least not to him). That Isaak respects some part of his personality is even better.]

As are you. I think that our general opinions on morality aren't as different as I believed them to be.

[It's odd how fleeting his earlier sense of betrayal and disappointment was, and he's aware of that. Isaak has turned what Pavel thought he knew about good and evil on its head and, strangely enough, the new perspective is more in line with what Chekov has believed for some time now than what he would have claimed to know.]

I aspire to be as wise as you are someday.

[It's only not a direct answer because the question isn't relevant. This has never been, for Isaak, a matter of trust. To say that Isaak trusts Chekov is axiomatic; this conversation would not have come so far if he did not. Granted, that is in part because Chekov wears his ideals like his uniform, and because he has little aptitude for deception. (Isaak, on the other hand, has a great aptitude for seeing through deception, so that as all things are relative.)]

It doesn't come easily, [he says simply, which of course must also be evident by now. Still, there is nothing rueful about that; it is a fact, and true of all wisdom. He sips his drink.]

I'm glad I've not wholly disappointed you.

[That sounds like a joke, and it is. It also isn't. He'd understand and accept it if Chekov never spoke to him again, but he'd be displeased.]

I think that, if I had expected to be wholly disappointed, I would not have come here.

[It's true; if he hadn't been convinced that Isaak is a decent person, past actions aside, he would have been unable to inquire further. He's still rather solemn and thoughtful as he attempts to recalibrate his moral code to fit Isaak's conduct.]

Hmmn.

[So, in a sense, the decision was made in advance of the justification.

(Though also, of course, it was not.)]

Well, I'm pleased that you did.

Maybe not so pleased as I am.

[He's trying to figure this out--why it's so important to him that Isaak remain a man to trust and admire when he has done many things that Pavel would find appalling.]

Isya. [Testing the informality. It sounds right.] I have told you more about what troubles me than anyone else, in any universe. I cannot say why, but I'm glad that you have listened.

[While it is Isaak's opinion that advice exists independently of its giver-- that good advice can come from bad sources-- there is a certain faith one wants to have in one's confidante.]

I've enjoyed our talks, Pasha.

⚔ i thought we might have a little chat.

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